arch/ive/ief (2000 - 2005)

The Belgians were the bravest amongst the Gauls already in front of Julius Caesar long before the discovery of America, and they are no less brave today in taking position in front of another world conquerer, the US.

There is no shame in refusing to play a shamefull death-game unworthy of human civilisation. Ringing the bell is a civil duty in the current world context. Someone has to do it. They don't have to shoot at us for that.

Belgium, France and Germany, the good old and wise Europe, are not naïve as they break the NATO procedure silence. They know very well that the US wants to misuse NATO to gain complicity of the world for their planned looting and plundering campaign. We know that the US is at the point of putting Turquy in danger, not Iraq, and that the use of NATO 'defense' is only a substitute for our active participation in their dirty wargame. We know that the NATO defense support again might hardly be used to protect Turquy, but rather to protect the American protectorat Israël, with their AWACSes, Patriots and personel, once the US pulled the trigger.

Why should we be ashamed to see and know all this and then refuse to the US to even start this dirty game.
Why should WE be ashamed that NATO had it's first upper-cut now after the Cold War? It's the US that caused this to happen by pushing Europe and the whole world too far to conspire under force.

What is so small about Belgium in this? A country larger than Israël and hosting the Capital of Europe, also hosting the consciousness of Europe as of old, having become wise on the crossroad of pushing and clashing powers. Are the people of smaller size here relative to the boundary size? Are their brains lighter than those living in a big country? We are no different at all. We have only a better view here on the crossroad. And we know who you are...

Some businessmen think the Belgian refusal to NATO implication in an aggressive war will have an adverse effect for their business. By no means! At least they know now where Belgium is in the States. Further don't forget that the economy in the US is in bad shape, and that their businessmen know that Bush's interest in warfare rather than wellfare is the cause. So they are also against that warmongering game, like most of the population of the US is.

Finally what's wrong with making use of a NATO procedure? That procedure must have been put there for some reason. If we hear in what terms warvultures like Rumsfeld fulminate on our disagreement, then we can well imagine why.
The damage done to NATO's credibility by his reactions is done and it will not be forgotten. But it's entirely at the cost of those who started this dirty wargame in the first place...

But no sweat, in Europe we can recover our own NATO efforts when it falls appart like the Warshau Pact did, we can rearrange them easily into a similar defense organisation that just fits its purpose: defending our own Europe itself ourselves with our same own means, without having to ask the other side of the ocean how and when.

Of course they could still ask us, when needed. And we will be able to refuse if we think their demand is manipulated and unjust, just the same, or assist them if it is sincere.

while it is great that belgium, germany, france, russia and china stand up to the usa, i wonder how long before france capitulates---we see them as without courage or backbone primarily because of ww2--and russia and china make deals with the usa. with respect to the courage of belgium, your voice doesn't count on the security council. also, you aren't a match for the might and fury of a vengeful america. i am canadian, i disagree with the warmongers and greedy oil grab that is the reality of america's desire to use force in iraq. i don't like to live next to them and you have no idea how frustrating and frightening it is to live next to the usa---we are afraid of terrorist attacks because of our proximity. but, please don't arrogantly assume, as an old european, that americans don't know who you are and don't perpetuate stereotypes---you cause more hatred and more wars. again, i 'm glad at the courage of europe, and at the attempt to break free from usa hegemony with some form of mulitlateralism, but please leave your old world arrogance elsewhere. please recall that canada helped to liberate europe from nazi terror--and, yes, it couldn't have been done without the americans. we are all in it together--it isn't only the EU.

I'm sorry, buti'm just soooooooooo sick and tired of hearing that weak ass excuse "we helped you out 50 years ago, now you have to help us". Cut the crap will ya?

First of all, the situation was totaly different. We were invaded by a foreign force, a genocide was happening over here. You guys helped us out (no shit: THANK YOU ALL BIGGTIME!!!) and afterwards you guys even helped reconstructing our nation. REALLY THANKS DUDES, really!
Iraq might have a bad regime, but they're NOT posing ANY treat against a country beeing garded by 40 000 US soldiers and with the eyes of the entire securitycouncil pointed at them, just waiting for that wrong step to have an excuse to invade them. And they surely won't attack Turkey before friday! At least consider the peace-proposition made by gemany and france!

Also, our minister of foreign affairs does has a point (whoooooooooooooooow, is this really me sticking up for Michel? a politician??? damn i'm growing weak!). Why should we replace american troops elsewhere so they could go prepare the war in Iraq if the weapon-inspectors still haven't finished their work? Why should we be thinking in terms of deadlines? The war hasn't started yet, so why send troops?

And yes, Belgium might be a small country, but if Belgium and France or Germany would decide to consistently block any attempt of war, you could have a hell of a time of legalising this war! Try getting a US-mandat without France... Or try getting a NATO-mandat without Belgium... We'll see what this could do for the public opinion in your countries.

And besides that... you guys are affraid of terrorist attacks? Imagine living in Bagdad right now. You guys have no clue of what war is. I've had the lick of never having to live during one in my country, but i've seen old folk starting shaking and crying like babies when telling their experiences. I've seen pictures of my town destructed by bombs and with early-familymembers of me covering the ground. My grandma was in the resistance, she's been deportated and came back alive. Even now she's dead (2years now), i still remember the horror coming in her voice when remembered of old friends who did not come back. You guys might have lost your young boys and girls, but they chose a job as soldier. These people are innocent. Plus you don't have any idea how bad the wounds can be by killing some (or a lot) members of EVERY family, of damaging EVERY house in your community, spreading hunger in EVERY family (except the happy few), ...
WE DON KNOW WHAT THAT FEELS LIKE.

And at last: a recent poll in our country indicated that 80% of all Belgians are against a war without UN-mandat, and even with one, still more then 60% of the Belgians are against any form of violence done to the iraque people. Almost every European country shows simular results. Does the word DEMOCRACY mean anything to you? Well, (at least officialy) the Belgian and European gouvernments are democracies. Peolpes representatives have to REPRESENT PEOPLE (i know, usually they just represent themselves, but hey, when it's good, we have to be honest too...).

So please don't go around whinging "we helped you out, now help us". We are not your lapdog, you've allready got one ruling Britain.

When america says "jump" Brittain'll say "how high", and we'll say "FUCK OFF, TELL US WHY FIRST" and we'll see weather or not we like it.

old world arrogance??????????????????????

let's go back in time...

But the US didn't lift a finger to help Europe until 1943.

The moment that America actively offered help to her European brothers and sisters, the American war industry was already 2 ½ years to the full running…

The vice-president of America at that time, Truman, wasn't a man who was beating about the bush. The New York Times of 24 July 1941 reported him as saying: "If we see that Germany is winning the war, we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and in that way kill as many as possible."

Can you please explain to me why you think these two situations can be, even in the slightest sense, compared with eachother.

WOII saw naziterror spreading through all of europe and the rest of the world, killing milions, oppressing even more milions of people, massive all-out worldwide war. And can you compare that now to saddams Iraq... please do so, it's the only way that your comment is able to make any sense. otherwise you cannot compare them.

I'll make it even easier for you, try comparing NaziGermany with aggressive USA imperialism. You'll have a much stronger case.

eAs, i was thinking the same thing about michel. and also thought i would never say anything like that.

bluenose:
"...how long before france capitulates---we see them as without courage or backbone primarily because of ww2--and russia and china make deals with the usa"
to bluenose:
"but please leave your old world arrogance"

I would like to support Muriel Vandenbosch relating the involvement of the US and Canada in the second worldwar. Some historical facts are wiped out again and again when talking about the 2nd worldwar.
1) The US and England supported the nazi army by selling weapons to Hitler before the 2nd worldwar
2) The US only got involved after it was attacked in Pearl Harbour by Japan
3) Partisans all over Europe were fighting for freedom during the 2nd worldwar. In some countries they have beaten the nazis and the fascists without any US or Canadian support (e.g. former Yougoslavia)
4) The foreign armies (US, Canada...) disarmed these partisans once they liberated
5) Berlin was liberated by the russian army...

Etcetera... I have a great respect for the american and canadian soldiers that fought against the nazi occupation in Europe, but this shouldn't be a reason to wipe out the hidden agenda of the American leaders at the time. There is no doubt about what this agenda was leading to. The US empire is ruling the world now.

And now please stop living in the past. Don't each time invoke old stories to justify what's happening wrong today. We are far, far away from that. We don't call in any comparisons with the Session Wars or whatever.

Eeach war is a failure of humanity to evolve in a civilised way. Each recall of such failures deters attention from the real mission: make all aspects of life better for all of us, whatever our country, whatever our continent.
Humanity should have learned better by now. In Europe we know, in Canada also, and that's it.
In the US humanity seems still a bit too young for a role of world leadership. They have the material means but not the maturity. It's selfevident that old peoples all over the world have not been accepting their desperate attempts to rule them for decades already by now.

But we don't have to come back to the old stories of our grandfathers and parents for any other reason than for illustrating just that.

is it Europe that finally stands up to the mas US foreign policy, or is the people that constantly refer to the US liberating Europe in 1945? As people commeneted before, the US only joined the allies after Pearl harbor, second without the help of European resistance forces on the continent who risked their lives to sabotage the nazi army supplies prior to D-day, and without the help of hunderds of thousands of Britisch, French, Polish, Belgian, Dutch, Indian, African etc troops that fought on the allies side, the US wouldn't have been able to do shit against Hitler. Besides D-day was only made possible because Hitler's army was being overwhelmed by a sovietrussian force coming from the east after the batlle of Stalingrad. But after fifty years of cold war propaganda brainwashing most people in 'the west' seemed to have forgotten that millions of people died in Eastern Europe before the allies opened a second front in the west with the landing in Normandy. And also, since the North american continent wasn't once directly threatened with the destructive airbombardments, let alone foreign occupation, no wonder the US had a chance to build up a huge force that, i agree to that, HAD A MAJOR ROLE in defeating the nazis.

i'm pretty sure all the millions of victims and veterans of both world wars turn over in their grave when people try to justify Bush's next war against Iraq with their sacrifice, just like the millions of jewish victims of the holocaust do with the suffering that Israel brings upon the palestinians.

i would agree with the comment from ben that each war was a failure of humanity although i must say your percpetion of the america, or canada as young is not accurate. canada started as a state in 1867 although it had settlers and other versions long before it--i think this makes it one of the older federal democracies in the world. indeed, canada burned down the white house in 1812, which arguably was the only time the usa was attacked before 9/11, because hawaii was a protectorate during pearl harbour. i also must comment that i don't support the usa: most canadians are anti american. we don't want the war, although we are in a bad spot because over 70% of our imports are from the usa and 85% of our exports. we are afraid of retalitarory terrorist attacks---certainly, i am aware of the people of iraq and their suffering, although i don't think canada ought to suffer a terrorist attack because of the usa's hegemony and unilateralism? please we recall we are not americans----i wanted you to see how it is over here so that you could open your eyes beyond the ideology and rhetoric and stereotypes you have of anyone in north america. however, it seems when you do invoke history then you claim you are better etc than people elsewhere, esp in north america, which is a assume a stereotype. canada was in ww2 --we lost a lot of men at dieppe, france because the british used our men to gauge the strength of the germans-- from the start. i don't justify the use of force in iraq by invoking ww2, but i made the point that you needed us and perhaps at this time, we need you. we don't believe in the war against iraq and wait for a un mandate but we cannot speak out because we suffer usa imperialism daily--economic mostly.
again, i'm glad that europe has some courage but i do think france will sellout as will russia--they have oil interests in iraq. belgium doesn't count on the security council,nor does germany, but it is possible that europe along with other middle powers could start a multilateral solution or opposition to usa hegemony.
i think i wanted you to become aware of canada and forgo your stereotypes of north americans.we are not all ugly americans. we have a history--canada has three founding nations--aboriginals, english/scottish and french ---in fact, the destruction of the north american indians was a war and genocide. please don't assume anything about canada, or the usa. please try to see that we have a common humanity. perhaps we will stop wars, at that point.

if you want to know, canada has been around longer than italy and germany--they became states in 1870 and 1871 respectively. also, we are one of perhaps 23 federal states in the world. there have been many wars over here---rebellions in upper and lower canada in the 1830s started mostly because of the animosity between french and english--the war of 1812---the american revolutionary war in 1776 affected us--everything they do affects us!- some of us fought for britain and were called 'loyalists'--and the riel rebellion in 1885 where the army fought with the metis and executed their leader, louis riel. there are more. we share three or more nations in one country--as does belgium.

Don't misunderstand me. I do have good feelings for Canada, quite distinct from those for the US, as you do. Canadian immigrants are generally much more civilised and sensitive people than the average US immigrants. I met Canadians many years ago, when I was in the US. My eldest daughter spend a year with a friendly family in Canada some years ago and we were all quite charmed.
But: I would not have raised the case, but it has always surprised me how loose Canada organises itself and how much it allows the USA to influence and even dominate your magnificent country. Perhaps it is because of the cold that pervades the largest part of the year, which of course is much less the case in the south.
Anyhow, it's a very positive thing that a number of culturally higher educated peoples with each their own specific values in all parts of the world are coming up to stand together and to form a strong public opinion of righteousness that contrasts automatically to all US tentatives to ignorantly do wrong.
And there Belgium, like any other state, can make a difference.
I'm not afraid we will get isolated.

to bleunose
i visited the us this summer, minnesota in particular. i didn't like atlanta but i thought minnesota and minnesotans were great. i 've met great people and terribly friendly people most of whom, actually all the people i talked to about it, were opposed to bush then and probably still are. for some personal reasons i had a lot of contact with americans (and some candaians), even intimate, and i do know many of them aren't the evil people that some shortminded people want us to think they are. i do think despite the freedom of press, people are very badly informed over there about the world. anyway i need to go.
peace and love to canada

can you please explain what those stereotypes actually are?

i'm really interested in those. seriously. I lived a year in the US, I have a lot of family in Canada, and have some friends in Mexico that i visit as often as i can, i'm really interested in how i stereotyped all those people. (you generalize and stereotype too much i think, be careful with that, it makes you see things too cloudy).

we have a common humanity!! you couldn't be more right! But not daring to stick up and try and prevent this war, because of economic reason, has nothing to do with humanity, that is greedy and immoral.

bluenose
"we don't want the war, although we are in a bad spot because over 70% of our imports are from the usa and 85% of our exports. we are afraid of retalitarory terrorist attacks"
can you please tell me, in what way iraq and 9/11 are connected???
How many hijackers were Iraqies?

greetz.

Bluenose, je suis désolée de l'effet produit par l'article arogant de Ben: "Cocorico, vieille Europe!"
Je crois que je n'aimerais pas non plus cet article si je vivais dans le même pays que toi.
La discussion qu'il provoque démontre les DANGERS DU DISCOURS NATIONALISTE comme celui de Ben. Un tel discours divise les peuples et les monte les uns contre les autres. Il n'a pas sa place sur Indy. Je ne demande pas qu'il soit censuré mais il faut préciser qu'il ne représente pas une pensée de gauche.

Tu m'as appris quelque chose: que c'est frustrant et angoissant pour les Canadiens de vivre à côté des USA. Moi je vais t'apprendre quelque chose: que depuis quelques années, beaucoup de gens de la vieille Europe rêvent d'émigrer au Canada, parce qu'ici en Europe, on est de plus en plus pauvres, et que le Canada est un grand et magnifique pays où la nature est belle, où ce n'est pas trop peuplé, où il n'y a pas des autoroutes et des usines partout comme chez nous.
L'herbe est toujours plus verte chez les autres!

Bon maintenant je vais acheter un dictionnaire
français -> anglais, comme ça je pourrai me risquer dans la langue de Shakespeare la prochaine fois.