arch/ive/ief (2000 - 2005)

I sent a photograph to an american friend ... It's a man and his grand-child crying because of the kidnapping of his wife by slave dealers in the Iranian border... I thought my american friend would understand.. My friend works with minority groups in the west-coast of the US, my friend is a psychologist deeply moved by people's pains... This is his reply...All I could think of, was that his opinion had been shaped, distorted, deformed, conformed by the American Media. How many people in the US share his thoughts, I wonder

...please don't send me pictures like that, have u seen any of people crying at the world trade center? i totally support the us effort to end terrorism. whatever casualties are happening are the fault of the taliban for not handing bin ladin over. the entire world is involved in this. it is unfortunate and horrific that innocent people are being killed, but this is a really big thing, and the freedom of the world depends on it. whether others like it or not, the u.s. takes a role in monitoring freedom the world over, and they may exploit others in order to ensure freedom, nothing and no regime is perfect, but this is the best one in the world, and i have traveled extensively and know this to be true. whatever is behind this war, oil, money whatever, nothing changes the fact that over 5000 people were killed by a psychotic islamic fundamentalist. this is not ok, and i really think we must defend against this sort of thing.

THESE ARE THE REPLIES I GOT FROM INDYMEDIA AROUND THE WORLD:
1)Reality hurts
by troy prouty* 12:24pm Thu Nov 8 '01 (Seattle)
On both sides.

It is possible that both sides are right and wrong. He is right that the people should look towards the taliban for cause, but it also true that the United States are wrong in many things they are doing.

Both pictures of people there and here, does not make either more wrong then the other. Both are wrong. If you are looking for another solution I guess you must looks to the ends of the mean.

The United States has a objective and so did Bin Laden, right or wrong Bin Laden carried his out, now the United States will carry their's out.

2)Disgusted
by Naomi 2:18pm Thu Nov 8 '01 (New York City)
i can't believe that they said that. The american people don't think about the fact that there are 5000 people dying in a little dick fuck no where country every single day and they don't give a flying fuck! That makes me so mad! Do they think that they are the only ones who have problem with terrorism? They are the terrorists to so many people. They wonder why people from other countries don't like them. They are self centered. I understand that 5000 people died for no good reason but how is going out and killing so many more innocents going to fix things. I have a friend from the united states and he told me that for the 5000 innocents that they killed they are going to kill 10000. Are the Americans lives worth more then the lives of the innocent people of Afghanistan? How is killing more innocent people going to make what happened in ney york and washington right?
3) Not all of us are so easily misled.
by Z 4:10pm Thu Nov 8 '01 (Ontário)
Don't worry. There is a large group of people here in the US who are see what is going on in our name and do not agree.. It's going to take some time to counter the us media propaganda before we reach enough people..
but we will do

4) typical of the brainwashed (english)
by greg 11:57am Thu Nov 8 '01 Indymedia org
That's a very typical view of professional people in educated circles. Yes, they've been shaped by media and they aren't very questioning of government motives. The interesting thing about it is they think this way in spite of the fact that we are still waiting for evdence, any evidence, that Islamic Fundamentalists associated with Bin LAden carried out the attack. George Bush said himself that evidence was not going to be released because it is "classified". Where are the flight recorders? Where are the transcripts of conversations with the flight control towers? Nothing. Any other plane crash and the media would be all over these things. But not this one. It's depressing but it just goes to show how powerful propoganda is, you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the virtual truth.

5)HUH ?? (english)
by holiday 12:34pm Thu Nov 8 '01
What does a picture of 2 people crying over a kidnapping by slavers in Iran have to do with the response you posted. What an idiotic post.

6)as an american...
by myself 6:58pm Thu Nov 8 '01
I find this kind of rhetoric reprehensible. Why are American lives worth any more than Afghan (or any other country)? Unfortunately I'm not surprised by your friend's response. That attitude is by far the predominant one over here. People refuse to consider the role that US policy has played in the events of Sept 11. Yes it's fucked up that 5,000 people died. It's also fucked up that 5,000 Iraqi children die every month as a direct result of sanctions. It's also fucked up that hundreds of thousands of people in Latin America were murdered as a direct result of US military invasions. And Americans wonder why they are so hated?...

7)all too familar (London)
by i 7:38pm Thu Nov 8 '01 all too familar (London)
by i 7:38pm Thu Nov 8 '01

If that's how most americans think then bush can do as he pleases. I wonder if he will keep score it won't take the U:S long to bump off 5000 afghans, no pop star funerals and candle light processions for these folk. They will be a statistic that very few people will ever hear about.
I bet the majority of 1500 reported killed to date were were woman and children, and just a handfull of taliban fighters Your friend seems to imply that even this is acceptable, barbaric, if you ask me ...

8) Scares me too
by Andy 9:16pm Thu Nov 8 '01
The way America is going it scares the hell out of me. I can see Bush cancelling the next election. Too many parallels with 1930's Germany.

9)Figures
by Andy 6:59am Fri Nov 9 '01
Will you people please stop regurgitating the 5000 WTC figure. There were only 2800 people killed in the WTC, the pentagon and the planes.
This is another piece of miraculous brainwashing which seems to have affected everybody.
As for the letter, what a bunch of wankers.

10)What's "Freedom"?
by We Who Are Free 4:17pm Thu Nov 8 '01 (Urbana-Champaign)
The people who claim that U.S. military action supports, defends, or propagates "freedom" will need to define freedom for me.

When my children starve because my village is destroyed, I am not free.

When I oppose military violence and yet have no choice but to pay taxes which fund this violence worldwide, I am not free.

When I, along with majority of others, elect one candidate, and another takes office by fraud and subterfuge, we are not free.

A thousand other examples could follow.

11) cant understand a word of this
by no idea November 8 2001, Thu, 2:03pm(San Francisco!!!)
mailto:
I have no idea what this means.

12)Spectator Democracy
by Deicide 11:50pm Thu Nov 8 '01 (New Jersey)
The corporate aristocracy shifted much of its monopoly towards propaganda and media following the Vietnam War. The first televised war more graphically showed the reality of what Vietnamese people were going through during the invasion. Now, government controls what images get to the public, and the media is so tied into other industries...including defense contracting...that nothing will be shown that might threaten the corporate dictatorship. In other words, political discourse is slashed right at the root. There is none. People in America, unfortunately, will never have the bombings of civilians in Afghanistan, the starvation of Iraqi people, or the murder of Palestinians replayed on their television screens as much as the World Trade Center bombing. Why? Because then they might seek some sort of accountability on the matters...

13)A Friend?
by Alliance 4:31pm Thu Nov 8 '01 (Mineápolis/St Paul)
If I were you, I'd get a new friend!
Seriously though, it is our responsibilty to educate ourselves. Why not share what you learn?
Some people will only listen to "mainstream" (read "corporate") media. There are plenty of articles from the monopoly press that are highly critical of US Foreign Policy. However, US News and World Report criticsm ("we aren't moving fast enough" or "we need to bomb those Afgans faster") can be disregarded. Don't alienate people with grisly photos, but don't deny their existence either. Go to the Guardian or Mediachannel.org - freedom of press means freedom to criticize. Keep speaking your mind - educate everyone you meet.
This is an uphill battle, but if we keep speaking the truth of the crimes behind the Consortium in the White House, if we can inform them of the request of the French Tribunal to question Henry Kissinger in regards to his support of General Pinochet, if we can humbly admit that we don't have all the answers either, we can all get a little closer building the coalition of peace, compassion, and understanding that will trump the coalition of avarice, war, and ignorance.

14)LETTER FROM AN AMERICAN FRIEND (Vancouver)
by ALI 7:21pm Thu Nov 8 '01
THE MEDIA IN THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES IS CONTROLLED BUT NO ONE BELIEVES IT AND IT HAS NO CREDIBILITY.IT COMES NOWHERE NEAR THE POWERS AND INFLUENCE THAT THE MEDIA IN THE US WIELDS.

AND THIS INSPITE OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH GUARANTEED BY THE CONSTITUTION.

OBVIOUSLY THE MEDIA IN CONJUNCTION WITH BIG BUSINESS HAS OPENED UP ANOTHER INDUSTRAIL REVOLUTION. MANUFACTURING OF CONSENT.

HOW LONG WILL THE VESTED INTEREST KEEP THIS GOING?? THE GENERAL PUBLIC DOES NOT HAVE A CHANCE.APPARENTLY. TAKE A CLOSER LOOK HOWEVER AND YOU WILL SEE THAT THIS STRENGTH IS BRITTLE. HENCE THE DEFENCE MECHANISM AND EFFORTS TO GAG DISSENT.

SO FREEDOM LOVING PEOPLE MUST VOICE THEIR CONCERN.PICK UP YOUR PENS. LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD.NOW.

15)blood feud
by Tomas 11:10pm Thu Nov 8 '01 (Sweeden)
It's the logics of a blood feud realy. When someone on your side is killed you "have" to do something, you "have" to retaliate, in "selfdefence". Then the other side, who felt justified for whatever reason to begin with, "has" to counter-retaliate, and so on. Blood feuds tend to leave a lot of dead people in their wake.

This is why we have laws to right wrongs instead of just letting the guns do the talking. It's true on a small scale and it's true on a global one too. Ask your friend if he wants a rule of law or if he wants a global bloodfeud.

16)Svårt att vara amerikan i dessa dagar
by s 11:26am Fri Nov 9 '01 (Sweeden)
Vänner jag har i USA har berättat hur extremt jobbigt det är i dessa dagar att försvara fred och männskliga rättigheter. Krigshetsen är total och media släpper inte fram någon opposition. Offren i NY exploateras hårt för att propagera för och legitimera dödandet i Asien.

Det enda vi kan göra är väl att påpeka att hela världen inte står bakom imperalismen, inte ens hela västvärlden.

Det finns anledning att vara orolig.

17)Email d'un ami americain
by Vihad 4:45pm Thu Nov 8 '01 (France)
eurotrash@nerve.com
Je suis americain, mais j'habite en France. J'ai reçu cette email d'un ami americain qui habite aux USA.

J'étais très déçu.

"I don't exactly know where to start this. I share your concern about
world events. Having lived in the Middle East for several years when I was
younger and having travelled the area from Teheran to Karachi to Delhi to
Peshawar as well as Shiraz and Persepolis I believe I have a better view and
understanding of the Middle East than most people in the US. .
The first thing one needs to understand about the people in the Middle
East is that they live in some of the most deplorable conditions imaginable.
When we have a dock workers strike, we worry about our toilet paper--the
vast majority of Arabic people have to worry daily about where their water
will come from, will an earthquake decimate my village before I return from
duties as a sheperd, will a heavy rain wash my home away...few have toilets.
In short, they have only the basics to worry about. While the rest of the
world has been progressing through time, most of the people in the Middle
East (for whatever reason) have chosen to remain in the 16th or 17th
century. Whether the reasons be economic, caste, or religion they have not
accepted the progresses won by the rest of the world. To be redundant,
while the western world went through the Industrial Revolution, and all the
rest of the Revolutions/Periods/Eras that we were taught in school, they
continued to herd sheep and goats through the hills. I know I have
over-simplified the situation, but please bear with me.
What I'm trying to say is that these people have very little to lose.
It is a simple life, yes, but if the house washes away in the rain, they
rebuild them, if an earthquake destroys the village, they move on and either
start another village or join one that wasn't destroyed. The primitive
ganaut system of water wells is ingenious, yet many die each year drinking
tainted water or falling through the covers on the wells. These are systems
that have been in place since Alexander the Great--for whatever reason, they
have not taken steps to prevent the tainted water or moved away from the
rift zones that kill their families over and over--they have not joined the
rest of the world in trying to improve their situation.
All of this and, surely American foreign policy has contributed to a
small faction of religious zealots blaming their problems on the West.
While I have lots of problems with the way things are in the West, I would
rather be here than there--at least here there is the potential for change
and no crowd is going to stone me to death for making a mistake. You may
take from my writing that these people are stupid--please don't
misunderstand me--I do not think they are stupid--however, the reasons for
living in a mud hut out on the plains or in two and three story buildings
that can't take a good shake, with no building codes or running water is a
mystery to me. It just doesn't have to be. I believe it is religion and
the wild interpretations of religion which has twisted the people's minds.
From past conversations with you I know that your family is Mormon, and you
know I don't have much use for any organized religion. Killing in some
god's name is wrong no matter how it happens or who it happens to.
My stand on the issues is that we should all talk about whatever the
problems are and hopefully come to a mutual agreement on whatever needs to
be agreed upon. Flying airplanes into buildings in New York and Washington
D.C. is not the answer, yet it has happened. Killing thousands of innocents
is only a way to really piss people off and invite retribution. Does Osama
bin Laden really think that bombing the WTC is going to scare, shame, or
influence the US into a situation which will be beneficial to him? You can
fool around with a little dog with impunity, but you just don't fuck with
the big dog. He will awaken and tear you to shreds. Regardless of the
saber rattling and rhetoric in the press--America is not going to carpet
bomb Afghanistan and kill thousands of innocents. We are going in to kill
bin Laden and his followers. I believe we will continue on into Iran and
Iraq and Libya to kill the zealots and take away their ability to hurt us.
We will also head into the Phillipines and Africa and kill their zealots
with as much precision as we can. Yes, some innocents will get in the way
and die--the terrorists have set up the situation that way. So we will do
what we have to and pray for those who really didn't deserve America's
wrath.
The reason we have to declare war and go after those that would see us
dead is because they will not stop trying to kill us. There is no reasoning
with them. By Western standards anyway, they are irrational. They live to
see us die. Their reason for living is to kill us. I hope your French has
improved to the point where they won't figure out that you are an American,
because if it hasn't--you are a target--especially in Paris. Killing Americans is the best, hippest, coolest thing one of these guys can do. The
more the better. As fervently as you believe in anything, they only believe
that they have to rid the world of Americans. Once they kill us off, they
will start on everyone else. Believe it.
As for Bush, you and I both know that whomever was in the White House
at the time would have the same thing going on. He is not special--any
president would be saying the same things and proceeding as he is whether he
liked it or not. I just hope he has the courage and backing to complete the
mission this time.
As for your attachments--sorry, all the higher thinking in the universe
is not going to change our world. Too many people exist on too many levels
and can't see from one to the other. We can sit around in our warm homes
with full bellies and spew our profound revelations on the world, but I
don't think it will make a difference. I for one refuse to allow the
zealots of the world control me and my actions. Fuck 'em all.
I hope you realize the danger you are in in Europe and come home.
Right now the situation is very black and white and every American should be
digging in for a long haul."

18)Fair and Reasoned
by Fred McIntyre 12:51pm Fri Nov 9 '01(Sydney)
The actions (atrocities) committed by the US led Coalition of Terror is a foul and dispicable act of cowardice. The perpetration of this crime against humanity on the Afghani people is ethnic cleansing.

However would I and others who feel this war is unjust feel the same way if someone flew QF-1 into Centre Point Tower?

Could we sit back and justify the event as our 'foreign policy coming back to bite us'? would I be happy with our Govt sitting on it's hands and not exacting bloody retribution for the loss of Australian life?

High ideals are fine when we are safe in our beds, but when our nation is threatened and our countrymen and being killed by a foreign agressors it is hard to remain objective. Emotions take over, and emotions can dictate our actions as much as our reason.

When judging America for it's actions, try not to be so harsh. Have understanding. Just as the sea urchin has a hard spikey shell to ward off predators, it too like the USA, under all that armour it is filled with soft squishy shite.

Always remember American people are just as ignorant and stupid as those religious terrorists they are
fighting. And like a retarded child they lash out and fear those things which they don't understand.

19)So true.
by AJ 7:42pm Fri Nov 9 '01 (Adelaide)
Hes right, the whole planet is threatened by these terrorists. The coalition forces are saving the world.

20) If you read it carefully...
by A Traitor 2:04am Fri Nov 9 '01 (Washington DC)
...the American is quite defensive and says clearly, please don't tell me what I don't want to hear.

Let's see what happens as this war drags on.
21)by IjR on Friday November 09, @01:41AM EST (#1) Philadelphia
I appreciate the brevity and eloquence of this short article.

22)???? Italy
by ???? 9:21pm Fri Nov 9 '01
Beh,

leggo in questo sito da un po di tempo. Non condivido tutto quello che leggo ma ho notato decisamente una cosa comune praticamente a tutti. é un leitmotiv che traspare ovunque. Ovviamente traspare se si guarda dal di fuori: dentro la foresta si vedono solo alberi.

Ci˜ che � comune a tutti � che gli USA sono criticatissimi, vengono definiti senza cuore, assassini, a tratti (e anche non) peggio dei terroristi e di bin Laden. Molti qui preferirebbero vivere in un mondo senza USA senza pensarci due volte e per˜, per˜ non si fa altro che chiedere agli USA ed agli Americani reazioni ed atteggiamenti da santi e da superuomini, da super saggi e quindi quasi da emissari di Dio in terra. Quando ovviamente non rispondono alle aspettative ecco gi" botte di nuovo: i soliti assassini, sanguinari etc. etc.

Scusa sai, ma se invece delle torri fosse stata l'intera piazza dei miracoli a saltare in aria e i ponti del lung'Arno crollare e 5 o 6 mila Fiorentini smembrati, bruciati vivi, dilaniati con gelida pianificazione, poi un mese dopo viene un amico tedesco e mi mostra la tua stessa foto e mi dice: sii comprensivo.

Scusa, ma il 99.999999% degli Italiani manderebbe quel tedesco affanculo.

Sei fortunato che ti abbia risposto pacatamente.

Aho` ma sveglia gente!!!

23)dissidenter (Sweeden)
by Tomas 6:12pm Fri Nov 9 '01
Kongressledamoten Barbara Lee som ensam röstade emot Bushs krigsmaktsresolution har numera polisskydd dygnet runt på grund av alla hotelser.