For the restoration of truth and justice in Greek society by solidarity Tuesday November 19, 2002 at 12:43 PM |
WE NEED YOUR SUPPORT! If you want to stand by the side of the social fighter Yannis Serifis, and to act against his unfair imprisonment, please sign our petition. The signatures will be used in the campaign for Serifis's release and for the abolition of the terrorlaw, which gives the power to the authorities to carry out such inhuman actions.
THE GHOST OF THE "JUNTA" STRIKES THE AUTONOMOUS WORKERS' MOVEMENT - YANNIS SERIFIS IS ONCE MORE A HOSTAGE OF STATE TERRORISM
On 27 October the Greek state arrested the fighter for social justice, Yannis Serifis, and sent him to the new "white-cells" of Korydallos prison. Serifis is 63 years old and is known in Greece as an anti-authoritarian trade union militant who, during the past 35 years, has taken part in many struggles, mainly in the name of the autonomous working-class movement.
The magistrates ordered his detention, on the basis of the false claim that he had confessed to the offences of "participation in a terrorist group" and "secret possession of weaponry". Following the announcement of the decision, demonstrators in solidarity with Serifis - members of leftist groups, members of the "Coalition Against State Terrorism" and anarchists - came into conflict with the police and one demonstrator was arrested.
In a written declaration distributed before entering the court Yannis Serifis says:-
Throughout my case, the authorities have tried to cast aspersions against all those who took part in the resistance against the military junta (1967-74), and who - instead of selling out - have chosen to continue to resist. Their real target is the growing autonomous class movement. They want to hinder and attack the revolutionary left and the anti-authoritarian and anarchist movements.
Yannis Serifis must not stand alone against state repression!
This is not the first time Serifis has suffered from state repression. This time the authorities want him to confess to their false allegations that he has participated in the organisation known as "Revolutionary Organisation 17th November" ("17N"). The only evidence against him is that he was mentioned in testimonies of arrested suspects of the "17N".
Years ago, Serifis was accused of attempted sabotage against the AEG factory, and of killing Christos Kasimis. He was found innocent of these charges; and at that time there was a strong movement of solidarity with him. Serifis is, above all, a social fighter. He resists, and speaks out against, the abuse of authority, and publicly declares his belief in freedom.
Only those who hide their true intentions behind authority and violence can be afraid of the truth. Such people are behind the well-organised state attempts to frame social fighters such as Yannis Serifis. They are also behind the growing suppression recently of social movements in Greece, which, in turn, relates to US President Bush's so-called ‘war against terrorism'.
If you want to stand by the side of the social fighter Yannis Serifis, and to act against his unfair imprisonment, please sign our petition. The signatures will be used in the campaign for Serifis's release and for the abolition of the "anti-terrorist" law, which gives the power to the authorities to carry out such inhuman actions.
In his October 2002 statement, Serifis made his own appeal as follows:-
My persecution has a long history and many false accusations against me in the past have been brought up again in relation to my alleged participation in the organisation known as "17th November", and other organisations that have been in the news.
I WOULD LIKE ONCE AGAIN TO STATE UNEQUIVOCALLY THAT I HAVE NO RELATIONSHIP WITH THESE ORGANISATIONS, AND THAT THEY ARE NO CONCERN OF MINE BECAUSE THEY ARE IRRELEVANT TO MY POLITICAL BELIEFS, AND TO THE LOGIC UNDERLYING MY ACTIONS.
I have been an industrial worker for more than 40 years. My political statements and activity have always been open, and within the context of the mass syndicalist movement. I have taken an active part in the development of a principled and uncompromising autonomous working-class movement.
I am aware that, for 35 years, I have been targeted by those controlling the machinery of persecution and repression in my country. This has been the case even while I was for many years an emigrant abroad.
During the 7-year military dictatorship, I was twice sentenced in absentia for my participation in the resistance organisation "Movement of 20th October". My personal persecutors were well known in Greece: Hatzizisis, Adamopoulos, Karathanasis and others.
On the arrival of the post-military government in 1977 I was arrested for "participation in an attempted bombing action" in the AEG factory, where I had been working - but was fired after a 77-day strike. In the armed conflict that took place in AEG the same day, Christos Kasimis was murdered in cold blood. I was also accused of that. After 15 months in custody I was declared innocent and released in an atmosphere of mass celebration.
Now the third round is coming. They want me accused of being the main recruiter and administrator of all the armed organisations and groups in Greece. They pretend they don't know that, from 1977 onwards, my family and I have been under close surveillance. The authorities know every step we take, every move we have ever made. Yet they have found no proof of anything illegal against me - for the simple reason that there isn't any. They will never find any, no matter how many "hideouts with arms" they have or will discover, because I have never been at any of them.
So they are driven to rely on the "testimonies" of other people they have accused. No one knows under what circumstances these testimonies were taken, or even if they were taken at all. But they have been used to fabricate charges against me.
I do not think it is accidental that, at the same time as the American FBI and CIA opened their doors to the Greek Minister of Public Order, the state interrogator's door was opened to an industrial worker of 40 years standing, and one who has been under surveillance for 35 years of those years.
NO MORE! I DON'T WANT THEM TO BOTHER ME ANY MORE.
But why me?
· They want to be rid of me and my family because of my disobedience to the bosses' orders;
· by attacking me, they want to intimidate all those who played a part in the struggle against the "Junta" and, refusing to sell out, have continued with their resistance to injustice since it fell;
· they want to strike a blow against the development of an autonomous working-class movement;
· they want to hinder and silence the revolutionary left, the anti-authoritarian and anarchist movements.
My plea to all my persecutors and those who slander me is to have me arrested and tried for what I really am, and not for what they want me to be.
The working class, in which I belong, and with which I have struggled all these years for the abolition of every social injustice, is now being told to accept the "reality" of the universal dominion of the "global new order". The only thing we have left is to answer with irreconcilable, uniting class struggles.
Yannis Serifis
27/10/02
THE "NEW" LIES
According to the Greek authorities Yannis Serifis is one of the most important pieces of the puzzle called "the breaking up of ‘17N'", and "the breaking up of terrorism in Greece". But, even according to Greek law, the accusations against Serifis are not sufficient to justify his arrest. "Anything that a co-defendant confesses in relation to another co-defendant, doesn't infer guilt upon him. That is what the law says", is the clear statement of Yannis Stamoulis, the advocate of Paulos Serifis! (Paulos is Yannis's cousin, and is one of the 17 people arrested and being held in Korydallos prison, the main accusation against them being that they are members of "17N".) The testimony of Paulos Serifis is, actually, the principal "evidence" connecting Yannis with "17N" which is being used by the state as an excuse for this unfair arrest. We will explain below why what Paulos Serifis is said to have testified in relation to Yannis is a tissue of lies and nothing more.
It should be made clear that, under the Greek constitution, someone's confession alone cannot be used as evidence with which to accuse and convict another person. Furthermore, as Yannis Serifis has said, he does not know if what was allegedly testified against him (by those already arrested as members of "17N") was really said. And, even if it was said, we do not know the circumstances and conditions under which this "testimonies" were given.
Indeed the evidence of the persons arrested as members of "17N" have unaccountable contradictions and gaps. All the testimonies were taken the first week of the arrests when the persons arrested were at the mercy of the "anti"-terrorist police interrogators. The prisoners were denied access to lawyers, and some of them announced later that there was use of physical and psychological violence, even use of of drugs, so as to force them testify. Later, most of the testimonies were withdrawn, and recomposed by the accused. Here are some characteristic examples from the testimonies of the accused where they refer to Yannis Serifis. Please pay attention to the bold letters and to the dates so as to note the contradictions:-
1. Christodoulos Xiros says in his testimony to the police: "In such a meeting in ‘the Chemistry' [the student population in Greece has always been politically active and thus areas and parts of universities, like the Chemistry lecture room, are used for meetings and gatherings in order to discuss political and social issues] at the end of 1983, I met the known syndicalist Yannis Serifis and we talked for first time specifically about the possibility of armed struggle…. Yannis Serifis introduced me to the person that today - after the publication of the photographs on the mass media - I recognise as Dimitris Koufontinas. He introduced this person as Louka."
2. Savvas Xiros says in his testimony to the police: "I met Yannis Serifis several years ago, before I was even involved with the organisation, in a restaurant which he had opened, I think with my uncle Argiris Tsakalias and with Kanellos who has since died. The only thing my uncle ever told me about Y. Serifis was that he has abandoned his family and he runs from place to place. My brother Christodoulos told me, if I remember correctly, that it is five years since in a lecture room, after a speech, Yannis Serifis approached him and he made him a direct proposal to become a member of "17 November". Then there was a panic in the organisation as he had made a proposal to a complete stranger, my brother. So Lampros [a pseudonym for the so-called political leader of the "organisation"] protested at the behaviour of Yannis Serifis and told him "why did you propose that he become a member? Do you know him?" and Yannis Serifis answered him "I know his uncle Tsakalias". From stories that were told between members, I had heard that Yannis Serifis took part in the first action of the organisation against Welsh [the CIA chief in Greece]. Yannis Serifis in a brief period after the recruitment of Christodoulos argued with the organisation and left. I am certain that after the recruitment of Christodoulos, Yannis Serifis left the organisation forever, as no one would have anything to do with him, and neither he with us ever again."
3. Paulos Serifis was more "specific" in his testimony: "…Previously from the surveillance [he means the surveillance of Welsh by members of "17th November"] which continued for a month, and was undertaken by all four of us who comprised the initial group. The four were Lampros; a girl named Anna - I don't know if this was her real name or not - who was 30 years old, blonde, tall (1.70cm approximately), with attractive features, educated; my cousin Yannis" [he means Yannis Serifis] - I can't remember him with any kind of pseudonym [according to all the testimonies everyone else had a pseudonym in the "organisation"!]; and myself…. When we finally approached Welsh's car, Lampros got out of the car he was driving, and he fired from a distance of 2 to 3 meters…. After the shots - 3 to 4 if I remember correctly - Lampros took the driver's position again, and myself and Yannis Serifis sat at the back of the car and we left…. In 1979, I finished the army and I didn't know anything more about the group. Then I met Lampros accidentally, and he said to me, "What can we do?" - meaning some kind of a new attack to be undertaken by the group. I asked him, "Alone?" And he said to me that we would find more to take part. Yannis Serifis had already left the group, because he had just been released from a trial, and he had argued with Lampros about the relevance of armed struggle. So I understood that Yannis Serifis had no relation with the group and with Lampros…."
ASPECTS OF HISTORY AND OF THE POLITICAL BACKGROUND
TO THE UNJUST ARREST OF YANNIS SERIFIS
From a document, The bosses and the state are continuously working on the elimination of the worker/social fighter Yannis Serifis, published on 1977, it can be seen that this is not the first time that the state has tried to repress Yannis Serifis and get him out of the way. This document stated:-
""On Tuesday 18 October [1977] a huge wave of state repression and terrorism was launched in Greece. This followed the actions of the social democratic government in Germany, which, on that day, in a military operation, eliminated 3 Palestinian fighters and murdered the German revolutionaries of the Red Army Faction within the "white-cells" of Stamheim prison.
In the already rich-in-brutality file of oppressive ‘democracy' in the Greece of recent times, tens of arrests were made without a reason. They were followed by the torture of those arrested, by trials based on prefabricated evidence, by raids on homes and offices, by the arrest of publishers of revolutionary writings, by imprisonments with or without trials, by deportations of foreign social fighters ... and - most shocking of all - by the murder of the revolutionary Christos Kasimis and the framing of the worker and fighter for working-class autonomy, Yannis Serifis.
But what is the reality of the events that led to the murder of Ch. Kasimis and in the constructed accusations against Y. Serifis for being the killer of Ch. Kasimis? What are the motives of the police in fabricating evidence, and of the newspapers and TV in rushing to judgement even before the legal courts had made any investigation?
The night of Wednesday 19/ Thursday 20 October last, the revolutionary group "For Internationalist Action", tried to protest the deaths of the German revolutionaries by taking direct action. They attacked the German company, AEG, by burning the warehouses and blowing up a part of the factory. Christos Kasimis, a member of the group, was arrested by two police officers and in his attempt to escape he was murdered in cold blood. What followed was a gunfight between the police and the group, and they managed to escape.
As the police couldn't find out the real members of the group, and wanted to wash their hands of the murder of Ch. Kasimis - acting on the basis of a well-thought-out plan aimed at getting social fighters out of the way - they created a prime suspect: the worker/social fighter Yannis Serifis.
The police officers - who are the only "witnesses" against him, and are themselves accused of murder after Kasimis' family brought a court action against them - are telling obvious lies when they insist that Kasimis was shot in the head at point-blank range by his comrades, when the officers had him in a headlock. And they are saying all this so as to prove that they indeed saw Y. Serifis in the dead of night, where visibility was poor. The coroner's report did not mention the fact that Kasimis was shot "at point-blank or from close or from mid range", but stated that he was shot "at LONG RANGE".
They are lying when they insist that there was a struggle between them and Kasimis. Except for the bullet in the head "no other kind of bruise or injury on the body was found".
They are lying when they insist that the police officer was holding the head of Kasimis on his chest when Kasimis was shot. The bullet passed through from the other side - so, either the officer would have been injured, or the officer's uniform would have been stained with blood.
Finally, they are lying in saying that they recognised Serifis from the photographs which were shown to them by the two officers of 401 Military Hospital of Athens the next morning, as they were on duty in the area of Pireas during that period. The police officer who was responsible for the interrogations of the case said in court that he began looking for Serifis's photos on the afternoon of the same day.
Already, and having the above fake evidence to hand (as well as other similar such ‘evidence'), the defence of Serifis has taken a court action against the two police officers and against "all those responsible" for the fiasco. But Yannis Serifis is still imprisoned with the threat that he will get a "life sentence".
"I ‘m neither the first nor the last person accused with fabricated evidence", writes Y. Serifis from the prison of Korydallos.
"It's not the first time that reaction makes such plots against fighters for social justice. In this way, and with such filthy and devious means, they attempt to terrorise and divert the attention of the working class, making all the fighting workers and syndicalists look like monsters, terrorists and irresponsible extremists. They try with their terrorism to bend the working class, stating that the class struggles are equivalent to terrorism."
But what are the reasons for choosing him as a prime suspect? Serifis explains this himself by writing:
"A) Because of my specific actions in the workplace and specifically in AEG, where I worked for 1 year here and 10 years in Germany. During the 70 days of our strike I was among the first ones to strike and a member of the ‘Committee of Struggle'.
"I was one of the first of the 42 to be sacked by the company, and I was one of the last three who didn't compromise with compensation. We demanded our reinstatement after a court action. My case was seen separately by the company, and its representative answered clearly, in my presence to the supervisor, that ‘we won't rehire Serifis under any power because he was agitating our workers into a strike. But we can refund him WELL'. All my co-workers in AEG, as many other co-workers from other unions, know very well that even if lightning was going to strike AEG, again I would be the one to blame!
So, using me as an example, the bosses and the police - in perfect co-operation - attack every effort of workers for self-organisation and autonomous political practice. They try to terrorise all the workers by implying' look what happened to Serifis, the same could happen to each one of you if you don't behave.
"B) Because of my specific involvement in the resistance (against the Junta) as a member of the organisation "Movement of 20th October".
"Some years ago Karathanasis was one of those, who, together with Hatzizisis, were trying to arrest me by using any kind of devious means. Today, the same man, in the same powerful position, is still leading this fiasco against me. But it is not simply a fiasco. Now we are dealing with a well executed political plan that aims, on the one hand, to get a militant worker out of the way, and, on the other, to take revenge for the resistance against the "Junta". In other words the same men are hunting the same social fighters, as it was in the 7 years of the "Junta".
To all the workers.
To all the free persons.
The imprisonment of Yannis Serifis is a part of the state's plans to drown every voice of freedom, to repress every action that doesn't respect the rules of the bosses' game, to foil every action of class autonomy by the workers, to get rid of every human being who thinks independently. The resistance against the plans of the bosses is a matter for everyone, for every human being, who does not accept subordination, destruction of human values, and the silence. The continuing terrorism of the capital system rests on, and perpetuates the acquiescence of its waged slaves. To overcome that acquiescence is to remove the only barrier in the way of the practical demand of freedom.""
LET'S RESIST THE TERRORISM OF THE BOSSES
FREEDOM FOR THE WORKER AND SOCIAL FIGHTER YANNIS SERIFIS
Group Vironioton
Who are in solidarity with YANNIS SERIFIS [1977]
Following the events described in the document, in November 1977 and in the aftermath of the launching of the Yannis Serifis prosecution, there initiative was taken by autonomous social fighters and organisations from the extra-parliamentary left to create the "Committee for the liberation of Yannis Serifis".
Hundreds of thousands of declarations, posters, stickers and every kind of printed material was circulated in a huge campaign to inform the public about the fabrications against Yannis Serifis.
Until the time of the trial, which was postponed twice, many indoor and outdoor demonstrations and other gatherings took place. There were efforts to generate international activity. In Italy, France, Germany and Sweden, protests and demonstrations took place in solidarity with Serifis by social fighters of the extra-parliamentary left and anarchists. Funds were gathered and many representatives came to Greece, among them Professor Durante, the philosopher Jean Paul Sartre and many other intellectuals, who testified as witnesses for the defence at the trial. In Greece big demonstrations took place at Yannena, Thessaloniki, Patra, Iraklio and Athens.
After he had been detained for 15 months, on 3 January 1979, the criminal court of Pireas found Yannis Serifis innocent on all charges.
MODERN BARBARISM
The term "terrorism" started being used at the end of 18th century and it referred mainly to the violent activities of states with the aim of enforcing the subordination of the masses. It is obvious that this meaning is useless for those who control the state machine, and the ideological system, which governs thought and expression. So the initial meaning of the term is not used any more, and the term "terrorism" is mainly used for the "terrorism" which is performed by isolated individuals or groups. Once the term was used for emperors who were abusing their citizens, today its use is limited for the bandits who abuse the powerful of the world.
Noam Chomsky, Pirates & Emperors – International Terrorism in the Real World
Writing in November 2002, we can say that it is now more than a year since the western democracies began their holy war against the "barbarians"... the terrorists.... This term with its new context was initially used by President Nixon and over the last ten years has been used by the global rulers for a variety of people.
"Terrorists" are the indigenous people of Chiapas, Latin America and the Pacific Rim - the "terrorists" who struggle for the self-management of their lives and land!
"Terrorists" are the whole populations of Iraq, Chechnya, Yugoslavia, and Afghanistan, just because in 90% of the cases the Western democracies are either trying to get rid of a crazy dictator, whom they installed, or to get rid of a "rebel" army, which they armed!
"Terrorists" are the ones who struggle for the safeguarding of our planet and "terrorist" their actions against the parasites who plunder our earth!
And finally "terrorists" are all the activists who protest against the rich and the powerful, and the fighters for social justice who struggle to throw off the bonds of economic and political slavery, which were imposed on us from birth by the self-declared global bosses!
Central to George W. Bush's declaration of the "anti-terrorist crusade" after the attack on the Twin Towers was the statement: "Either you are with us or against us". So anyone who does not follow blindly the state or anyone who struggles for human rights is on the other side … on the side of terrorism.
In reality the fight against Al Qaeda is a fight against the monstrosity the western powers created and armed years ago - in order to serve their interests and get rid of the Soviet regime in Afghanistan.
As they fight each other for profit, what the global bosses really want is to radically increase the ability of national and international authorities to repress people and extend the power of western states and multinational corporations across the world by:
1 Extending police powers of arrest and surveillance
2 Increasing military and police spending
3 Increase the influence and the power of intelligence services (such as CIA, Scotland Yard, Mossad etc) on an international basis
4 Building a US-led global military force against "terrorism"
The commands and threats of the US-led global bosses are so strict that not a single state dared to make a stand. Even if some governments had some minor objections, they objected only to save their democratic and socialist public image.
THE GREEK BOSSES OPEN A FULL SCALE ATTACK AGAINST SOCIETY
Greece belongs in the above category of states that are lackeys of the US. The socialist government and some MPs in the Greek parliament have some objections about the so-called "war against terrorism" but that's only for their public image on the mass media. What's happening in reality?
This summer the Greek "anti-terrorist" police force received the direct "help" of the CIA and Scotland Yard agents in arresting some persons with the accusation of being members of the "17N" organisation.
"17N" is responsible for a series of actions over the last 27 years, which include attacks and killings of Greek and foreign politicians, attacks and killings of torturers, judges, cops and owners of big Greek corporations, and bomb or rocket attacks against material targets (banks, embassies etc) especially targets linked with the US state. Furthermore, they have been accused of many bank robberies. Their first targets were individuals who were responsible for maintaining the "Junta", torturers, and Welsh, the chief of CIA in Greece. "17N" had the support of a substantial part of Greek society, a support which has been lost over the past few years, because some of their actions were considered "unfair" by the public (among them the death of a young student by mistake).
At this point, we have to make clear that social fighters are the ones who declare in public their beliefs for freedom as they have a clear conscience about what they are doing. The revolutionary left, the anti-authoritarian and the anarchist movements never recruit people and they should never have leaders and followers! We are fighting for freedom and social justice and we don't need "protector" armed groups the same way as we don't need the police and court authorities!
After the first arrests, the situation in Greece got out of control. The mainstream media began a big campaign of lies with the aim of rewriting Greek history! "Experts" on terrorism popped out from everywhere: journalists, reporters, politicians, cops, judges, ex-intelligence agents, fascists and "intellectuals" became prominent in the mass media on an everyday basis, trying to brainwash the public and to compromise the few humanitarian ethics in our society! And suddenly, after a month, the torturers and criminals of the "Junta", the same ones who tortured and murdered students, workers and every kind of social fighter and repressed the whole Greek society, became the poor victims of vicious and "evil terrorist" groups as "17N", "ELA", "1st May", etc. (The details of the actions and history of the armed-struggle groups is complicated, and each group has its own unique characteristics in ideology and actions.) The rewriting of history had begun!
The campaign against "17N" was just the moment awaited by the national bosses to make a full-scale attack on society! Suddenly all of those "experts" who were appearing on the news were self-declared crusaders for democracy's holy war against terrorism and all of those who struggle for the principles of freedom became terrorists! The parasites of society who live from human suffering made a full attack on all the active parts of society where there is a struggle for freedom! Libertarian, autonomous, anti-authoritarian, left, communist (with the exception of the formal Greek Communist Party) and anarchist, individuals, groups and organisations were attacked with extreme vengeance by the state machine. People were followed on an every day basis by both police and reporters … many people were stopped and arrested for no reason … phone lines were tapped … social centres and homes were put under surveillance … road blocks appeared everywhere … and generally the police presence in the cities (especially Athens and Thessaloniki) became extremely big. In Thessaloniki and other cities they even transferred lots of "border police"!
And as the media focus only on the "17N" situation, serious social problems and the ongoing criminal activity of the state was suddenly disappeared completely from the mainstream media. For example, in Greece, during the last two years, 190 workers died on "working accidents" as the state calls them (a big percentage of them on construction sites for the Olympic Games) - and those are just the official numbers…. As to how many are crippled, the number beggars the imagination!
So think about this for a moment. Let us accept the fact that "17N" is indeed a terrorist organisation because they have killed approximately 30 people in 27 years. What terminology, then, should we use for the state and the corporations for murdering more than 190 workers in a period of 2 years?! And we could give many more, similar, examples of state barbarism….
All of these things are happening with the blessings of the Greek parliament and of US and UK officials. The message they want to pass on is that only those who kneel and are obedient will survive. The rest will perish or rot in jail. They want to crush any kind of free initiative and resistance!
Let us also not forget that in June 2003 the EU summit is taking place in Thessaloniki (probably the last time an EU summit will take place outside Brussels); and that in the summer of 2004 the Olympic games are to take place in Athens. They want these two grand events to take place without anyone to oppose the misery that they will bring to the common people of Greece, without hearing any voices of freedom against the exploitation of Greek society that these two events will involve.
THE REVENGE OF THE STATE
What we have written above is only a very brief description of what's happening in Greece. Maybe it is not enough to make you understand the importance of the situation. But one thing is certain. The national bosses - both because they have been ordered to, and because they have unfinished business with the whole libertarian movement - are using their state machine in its full capacity in order to uproot and destroy the few rights and freedoms we gained through the centuries. Their ultimate goal is a society composed of obedient and brainwashed subjects, a society in which the only acceptable principles and ethics will be those of Capital.
The first victims of this modern witch-hunt are people known for their participation in social struggles; people who fought against the "Junta"; people who have struggled for better and more humane working conditions; people who struggle in their everyday life for the principles of freedom (for dignity, for self-management, for freedom of speech etc); and people who fight against state terrorism (against racism and xenophobia, against wage slavery, against wars and brutality, against fascism and dictatorship, against the destruction of the environment etc). So the "experts on terrorism" put in the same bracket the members of "17N" and these social fighters…. and by doing so they attach the taint of "terrorist" to all those who struggle for freedom.
Such people fight with whatever means they have.